Here are some links to a few complaints sites:
http://www.complaintsboard.com/
http://www.ripoffreport.com/
http://www.complaints.com/
http://www.bbb.org
These are good for doing searches on any of the builders you plan on talking to or have talked to. A few complaints may not really mean anything but lots of them very well could. It comes to the argument of how many pools they build. Of course, I have seen salesman tell someone that the reason they have so many complaints is because they build so many pools. That could be true but it could also mean that those were the only complaints that were reported. There are companies out there that go to great pains and money to refute these complaints and get them removed from the Internet as well. You kind of have to figure it out on your own as to the relativity.
Here are links to a couple of forums about pools:
http://www.poolspaforum.com/
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/pools/
The forums are good for posting questions about builders or in general. They usually have some disgruntled and some happy customers. You will find everything from excitement to full out misery with pool experiences. Keep in mind, these forums are watched closely by the builders. so, you may get hit with a sales pitch or even someone pretending to recommend someone (and they happen to be the person they are recommending). Overall, these are really good places to check out and even use down the road.
Here is a really good blog to check out about pools:
http://buyingaswimmingpool.blogspot.com/
Ha, just kidding...well sort of.
Have any of your own? Or something to say about these? Feel free to tell us by leaving a comment.
30 April 2009
27 April 2009
Update: Which Pool Builder Is Right For Your Project
You have some big decisions to make about which builder is right for you. Do you like the builder? Does he seem like a nice guy? This is a start but you should be cautioned that the builders are in this for profit. They are not there to make friends. Although, referrals are certainly a good way to get business.
There are several different types of swimming pool builders and stark differences between each. Whatever direction you decide to go, they all have one objective-to get you swimming.
National
Franchise
Local
Landscapers or other contractors that also build pools
National builders
Pros-national presence, financial security, warranty, experience
Cons-deal in volume, you can feel lost in the system, lots of red tape, strict contracts, management may not be familiar directly with your project (if you have a problem)
Franchise
Pros-backed by a bigger builder
Cons-only as secure as the individual franchise, may be backed by a bigger builder but they could be in another state or far away from you
Local
Pros-they are right in your backyard, probably know lots of people in your neighborhood, tend to be more directly involved in a project
Cons-a major lawsuit, missed payment or anything financial could bankrupt them, they may not be as up to date on technology as a bigger builder
Landscapers or other contractors that also build pools
Pros-they tend to deal mostly in custom projects, landscapers look outside of the pool itself for other things that may need to be done, they may be the ones that do custom stone work for the big builder anyway
Cons-lack of general pool building experience, may be wrapped up in one project for long periods of time and unable to get to yours, may not carry proper insurance tailored to a pool, may think they know how to build a pool but find themselves in over their heads
There are many pluses and minuses for each type of builder. In all honesty, I could sit here and argue for or against each one of these. I could be working for a national company this week and tell you how much of a risk it is to go with the local guy. Next week, I could go to work for a local guy and tell you how awful the national guys are. Truth be told, many of the employees of one have worked at the others at some point. It is up to you to find out what feels right and go with your gut. Referrals are a big help as well.
Example sales pitch from national pool builder:
We have been the largest builder year after year. We have the stability of a national company. We stand behind our warranty like no local builder can. Imagine what would happen, after your pool is built, if that local guy got sued on another project and it bankrupted him. How good would your warranty be then?
The truth: warranties are only as good as the company standing behind them. The national company can file for bankruptcy just as well as anyone else. They can also merge, sell out or be taken over with conditions that the new company is not responsible for any business dealings the previous company had. Plus, they can hide behind teams of lawyers or in house legal counsel.
Example counter sales pitch from local pool builder:
Those big guys are gonna run you through the ringer. Do you want to call a person or a call center with a question or problem? Their warranty seems really great. Wait until you have an issue and spend the rest of your life in litigation with them.
The truth: the warranty issue can be argued either way.
There are several different types of swimming pool builders and stark differences between each. Whatever direction you decide to go, they all have one objective-to get you swimming.
National
Franchise
Local
Landscapers or other contractors that also build pools
National builders
Pros-national presence, financial security, warranty, experience
Cons-deal in volume, you can feel lost in the system, lots of red tape, strict contracts, management may not be familiar directly with your project (if you have a problem)
Franchise
Pros-backed by a bigger builder
Cons-only as secure as the individual franchise, may be backed by a bigger builder but they could be in another state or far away from you
Local
Pros-they are right in your backyard, probably know lots of people in your neighborhood, tend to be more directly involved in a project
Cons-a major lawsuit, missed payment or anything financial could bankrupt them, they may not be as up to date on technology as a bigger builder
Landscapers or other contractors that also build pools
Pros-they tend to deal mostly in custom projects, landscapers look outside of the pool itself for other things that may need to be done, they may be the ones that do custom stone work for the big builder anyway
Cons-lack of general pool building experience, may be wrapped up in one project for long periods of time and unable to get to yours, may not carry proper insurance tailored to a pool, may think they know how to build a pool but find themselves in over their heads
There are many pluses and minuses for each type of builder. In all honesty, I could sit here and argue for or against each one of these. I could be working for a national company this week and tell you how much of a risk it is to go with the local guy. Next week, I could go to work for a local guy and tell you how awful the national guys are. Truth be told, many of the employees of one have worked at the others at some point. It is up to you to find out what feels right and go with your gut. Referrals are a big help as well.
Example sales pitch from national pool builder:
We have been the largest builder year after year. We have the stability of a national company. We stand behind our warranty like no local builder can. Imagine what would happen, after your pool is built, if that local guy got sued on another project and it bankrupted him. How good would your warranty be then?
The truth: warranties are only as good as the company standing behind them. The national company can file for bankruptcy just as well as anyone else. They can also merge, sell out or be taken over with conditions that the new company is not responsible for any business dealings the previous company had. Plus, they can hide behind teams of lawyers or in house legal counsel.
Example counter sales pitch from local pool builder:
Those big guys are gonna run you through the ringer. Do you want to call a person or a call center with a question or problem? Their warranty seems really great. Wait until you have an issue and spend the rest of your life in litigation with them.
The truth: the warranty issue can be argued either way.
21 April 2009
Swimming Pool Construction Basics (With Video)
The Basics Of How In Ground, Concrete Swimming Pools Are Built
This is usually broken down into phases.
Phase 1: Excavation
Phase 2: Steel
Phase 3: Plumbing, equipment set
Phase 4: Gunite (or Shotcrete)
Phase 5: Tile and Coping
Phase 6: Electrical and Gas (if applicable)
Phase 7: Decking
Phase 8: Fencing
Phase 9: Plaster
Phase 10: Start up
Phase 11: Swimming
Basically, this is how the pool is constructed. It can vary and depends on the company, the specific pool, inspections and other items. Some builders do a couple of phases at once, others do plumbing before steel, etc. In between several of the phases inspections will need to occur. That is dependent on your municipality requirements.
This is usually broken down into phases.
Phase 1: Excavation
Phase 2: Steel
Phase 3: Plumbing, equipment set
Phase 4: Gunite (or Shotcrete)
Phase 5: Tile and Coping
Phase 6: Electrical and Gas (if applicable)
Phase 7: Decking
Phase 8: Fencing
Phase 9: Plaster
Phase 10: Start up
Phase 11: Swimming
Basically, this is how the pool is constructed. It can vary and depends on the company, the specific pool, inspections and other items. Some builders do a couple of phases at once, others do plumbing before steel, etc. In between several of the phases inspections will need to occur. That is dependent on your municipality requirements.
Swimming Pool Preconstruction Phase
What to expect before any groundbreaking begins:
Design of the pool
Landscaping plan for around the pool
Access-how equipment and trucks will get in and out
Sales calls
Contract negotiation
Financing, payment schedules, deposits
Permitting, requirements, setbacks
Engineering
Pool and pool equipment placement in yard
Removal of obstructions to and from pool (fences, trees, shrubs, sheds, swing sets, etc.)
Approvals to being construction
Scheduling
These are the basics and can vary greatly depending on where you live, time of year, weather and any number of other factors. Make sure you find out what you are responsible for and what the builder includes. Ensure that this is clearly worded in the contract. Many a pool builder has pulled off day one because a swing set was in the way and the homeowner just figured the pool company would move it. The contractors (or employees) typically get paid per job by the builder, so anything out of their agreement may be something that they are not going to get paid for.
Design of the pool
Landscaping plan for around the pool
Access-how equipment and trucks will get in and out
Sales calls
Contract negotiation
Financing, payment schedules, deposits
Permitting, requirements, setbacks
Engineering
Pool and pool equipment placement in yard
Removal of obstructions to and from pool (fences, trees, shrubs, sheds, swing sets, etc.)
Approvals to being construction
Scheduling
These are the basics and can vary greatly depending on where you live, time of year, weather and any number of other factors. Make sure you find out what you are responsible for and what the builder includes. Ensure that this is clearly worded in the contract. Many a pool builder has pulled off day one because a swing set was in the way and the homeowner just figured the pool company would move it. The contractors (or employees) typically get paid per job by the builder, so anything out of their agreement may be something that they are not going to get paid for.
15 April 2009
Weather Permitting And Completion Dates
The weather permitting clause of a swimming pool contract is something most buyers overlook or do not fully understand. There are several factors that attribute to this: haste, excitement, vagueness, wording, etc. Whatever the case, it will save you great pain to know exactly what this phrase means to you and what it means to the builder.
Completion dates are another aspect of this area that can be confusing. You should be aware of the exact wording and the legal translation. Not taking the time to understand all of this will create a world of stress and anguish down the road.
Pool contracts normally state how long it will take (or they are allowed) to build your project. I say normally, because they should state this but some contractors find ways to leave this wide open. You should protect yourself by making sure this information is included in the agreement. Typically, it can be found on the back and usually in fine print.
Although time frames may be declared, how they are worded is the key. They can say anything from 30 days to several months. They can also have phrases to create a great amount of leeway for the builder.
I have seen customers get very upset because they were on day 31 and the pool was not complete. What they did not realize is that it said 30 business days, not 30 days. Business days are not weekends nor are they holidays. This oversight creates a volatile situation and is very simply avoided.
Another critical factor to be aware of is the clause of weather permitting. Sometimes this is clearly defined and sometimes it is about as vague as that salesman was when you asked him when they could get started. As you should probably be aware of, the weather is usually the number one factor in how quickly your project can be completed. After all, this is being built outside and the weather can pose quite a problem for builders. Weather permitting can mean everything from they won't be there today or it may be days. A good rule of thumb (although it really depends on the builder) is that one day of rain usually means at least 3 days tacked on to your project. I am going to pick on rain but you can imagine all the other weather conditions that can impact your pool (too sunny, too windy, too rainy, too cold, too hot, etc.). The reasons a rained out day can mean a delay of several days ranges from scheduling glitches to cash flow issues for the builder. In all fairness, the weather is often a factor on its own.
Remember, just because it isn't raining in your yard doesn't mean they are coming. Oftentimes, they have to make a call at 0500 in the morning. It can be rather expensive to send crews out that can't do any work.
Here are some examples of one scenario that can give numerous results:
Scenario: Crew did not show today due to rain.
What can result:
Tomorrow they have to go to the Smith's pool to finish work they started before the next crew shows up. They are scheduled for your pool the day after tomorrow.
Supervisor makes the call that (because they have to get the truck in your yard) that it will take several days to be dry enough to return.
They will be out tomorrow.
Tomorrow they have to have their truck inspected (which was scheduled weeks ago), so they will be out the day after tomorrow.
It rains for 3 days straight and there is no telling when they will be back out.
-----
As you can imagine, they are about a million different scenarios that can impact when the crew will be there. You should know that the weather permitting clause gives the builder plenty of latitude. Remember, nothing in the fine print is there to protect you (except what the law requires them to put in).
Completion dates are another aspect of this area that can be confusing. You should be aware of the exact wording and the legal translation. Not taking the time to understand all of this will create a world of stress and anguish down the road.
Pool contracts normally state how long it will take (or they are allowed) to build your project. I say normally, because they should state this but some contractors find ways to leave this wide open. You should protect yourself by making sure this information is included in the agreement. Typically, it can be found on the back and usually in fine print.
Although time frames may be declared, how they are worded is the key. They can say anything from 30 days to several months. They can also have phrases to create a great amount of leeway for the builder.
I have seen customers get very upset because they were on day 31 and the pool was not complete. What they did not realize is that it said 30 business days, not 30 days. Business days are not weekends nor are they holidays. This oversight creates a volatile situation and is very simply avoided.
Another critical factor to be aware of is the clause of weather permitting. Sometimes this is clearly defined and sometimes it is about as vague as that salesman was when you asked him when they could get started. As you should probably be aware of, the weather is usually the number one factor in how quickly your project can be completed. After all, this is being built outside and the weather can pose quite a problem for builders. Weather permitting can mean everything from they won't be there today or it may be days. A good rule of thumb (although it really depends on the builder) is that one day of rain usually means at least 3 days tacked on to your project. I am going to pick on rain but you can imagine all the other weather conditions that can impact your pool (too sunny, too windy, too rainy, too cold, too hot, etc.). The reasons a rained out day can mean a delay of several days ranges from scheduling glitches to cash flow issues for the builder. In all fairness, the weather is often a factor on its own.
Remember, just because it isn't raining in your yard doesn't mean they are coming. Oftentimes, they have to make a call at 0500 in the morning. It can be rather expensive to send crews out that can't do any work.
Here are some examples of one scenario that can give numerous results:
Scenario: Crew did not show today due to rain.
What can result:
Tomorrow they have to go to the Smith's pool to finish work they started before the next crew shows up. They are scheduled for your pool the day after tomorrow.
Supervisor makes the call that (because they have to get the truck in your yard) that it will take several days to be dry enough to return.
They will be out tomorrow.
Tomorrow they have to have their truck inspected (which was scheduled weeks ago), so they will be out the day after tomorrow.
It rains for 3 days straight and there is no telling when they will be back out.
-----
As you can imagine, they are about a million different scenarios that can impact when the crew will be there. You should know that the weather permitting clause gives the builder plenty of latitude. Remember, nothing in the fine print is there to protect you (except what the law requires them to put in).
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